07:37:40
sbt:nope.chat:
Did no one teach you how to respectfully talk with someone? > <@crazybot:matrix.org> @datahoarder:monero.social: ur bridge is down for #monero-markets u fucking retard
07:37:46
sbt:nope.chat:
The abusive tone was uncalled for
08:22:51
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
^ dont care, didnt ask, go cry a river to some shit like the HR department or the Monero CEO @plowsof:matrix.org
08:23:19
basses:matrix.org:
@sbt:nope.chat: he's jealous
08:28:59
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
^ lmao jealous of what? of being bff with the glowies? yea no thx, ill pass lmao
08:29:00
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
could prob get a temp bridge up an running that would probably be working in like less than 5mins, fuck that tho
08:29:00
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
but sure, have fun with the echochamber irc bullshits or whatever lmao
08:29:55
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
anyways, @sbt:nope.chat dont ping me
08:29:55
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
kthxbye
08:33:04
DataHoarder:
"working bridge" != "nice bridge" which was made from scratch in this case and not used MAI
08:33:19
DataHoarder:
as usual "kthxbye" but comes back a second later
08:36:38
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
so is better to have something that is not working
08:36:38
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
gotta be all fancy and shits else its not nice enough and have nothing is better, aight lol
08:37:00
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
👍️
08:37:49
DataHoarder:
I am not responsible from bridging channels I'm not asked to bridge by staff, so take your issue with them (including your ban evasion)
08:37:55
DataHoarder:
I do the bridging, not the decision for bridging
08:41:56
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
why would "i take the issue with them"?
08:41:56
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
like i said, i could get one up and running, not gonna bother with that tho
08:41:56
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
meanwhile you're the retard that dont "take the issue with them" to help you fix your broken shit that's too fancy to even work properly
08:42:48
DataHoarder:
there is no broken stuff. Bridge was asked to be disabled on that channel and was done so
08:42:52
DataHoarder:
If you bring one in, the ops will block it
08:46:58
plowsof:
shits
08:47:09
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
aight well earlier u was like, that's probably because of the matrix version that is outdated
08:47:09
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
so i thought "oh, so u could just use an earlier version of your bridge back when it was working with that older matrix version thing"
08:47:09
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
but now u giving yet an other story about the ops or whatever
08:47:12
uncalled_for:matrix.org:
anyways, cya o/
08:47:22
DataHoarder:
the tl;dr is that until there's two-way moderation (so that IRC ops can ban and remove matrix users like yourself quickly) they don't want the bridge
08:47:32
DataHoarder:
cya till one second later
08:47:52
DataHoarder:
09:47:51 <br-m> <uncalled_for:matrix.org> so i thought "oh, so u could just use an earlier version of your bridge back when it was working with that older matrix version thing"
08:47:52
DataHoarder:
no, that room wasn't broken
08:47:57
DataHoarder:
afaik
08:48:11
DataHoarder:
state is broken that causes invites to go bad, which is unrelated to bridge(?)
08:49:33
gan:skhron.org:
Rolled-back state simply results in brainspliting (i.e., netspliting)
08:49:37
DataHoarder:
at this point I don't know the state of each channel tbh. The bridge itself works on all fine, Matrix federation is what breaks
08:50:35
gan:skhron.org:
V12 makes it harder to break, but contextually state resolution isn't fixed
08:50:39
DataHoarder:
old bridge spans 31 channels, new bridge 14
08:52:00
plowsof:
Update room versions and add knocking for kitty lols
08:52:03
DataHoarder:
old bridge has 6 channels disabled, of those 4 were migrated to new, 1 was disabled by Libera Staff due to abuse, 1 was disabled due to request from channel ops
08:52:30
DataHoarder:
and a couple are unlisted that are either not setup properly or had broken state to start with (or were explicitly undesired to be bridged)
08:52:47
gan:skhron.org:
Regardless, invites are considered harmful, it takes a single shitter to mass invite the room into an oblivion
08:53:26
DataHoarder:
but afaik all requests for bridging coming from either channel ops for monero-adjacent rooms (like cuprate/revuo etc.) or monero group registered ones (usually plowsof asks) were listed
08:55:25
datahoarder:
@gan:skhron.org: there are some rooms that are unjoinable to non monero.social users
08:55:30
datahoarder:
that's the state issue :)
08:56:09
gan:skhron.org:
@datahoarder: That's interesting, contextually the rooms should be always joinable, but could be totally broken
08:56:34
datahoarder:
an upgrade to latest room version is pending on many rooms, offtopic was migrated, and the P2Pool channels too seamlessly (bridge also follows tombstones)
08:57:33
gan:skhron.org:
such total breakage is known to be caused by enabling restricted/knocking joins in a room which doesn't support it by its version
08:57:52
gan:skhron.org:
I've seen that only two times at most
08:58:02
gan:skhron.org:
and it was probably fixed in Synapse
09:00:11
gan:skhron.org:
that is, assuming I'm even correctly recalling the bug
10:17:37
sbt:nope.chat:
Children are not allowed to join. Better troll somewhere else > <@uncalled_for:matrix.org> anyways, @sbt:nope.chat dont ping me
10:18:43
sbt:nope.chat:
@uncalled_for:matrix.org: Omg get a life. Winny attention seeking bitch
12:13:24
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/zcash-the-israeli-developed-virtual-money-starts-to-make-its-mark/
12:13:24
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
Just found out that Zcash was created by Mossad. LOL!
12:13:47
uncle_rae:
oh noes
12:14:21
shitpost:monero.coffee:
@weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org: This is where I get all my news
12:14:40
Cindy:
"Sorry, you have been blocked"
12:14:46
Cindy:
"You are unable to access The Times of Israel. "
12:14:50
Cindy:
" If you’re using a VPN, please turn it off and try again. "
12:15:04
Cindy:
wow, i love news sites that block tor
12:15:21
shitpost:monero.coffee:
if you are using an Israeli-company owned VPN they let you in no problem
12:15:48
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
Cindy: I think it's the same with X
12:16:22
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
I tried to use X on Tor once and they didn't let me in pause
12:16:29
Cindy:
i just use xcancel
12:16:54
shitpost:monero.coffee:
yeah, just use privacy frontends to bypass sites with vpn/proxy/tor restrictions
12:17:06
Cindy:
also i kept rolling my tor circuit until i got in the news site
12:17:13
Cindy:
i'm using a german exit node
12:17:25
Cindy:
actually, germany is majority of the exit nodes anyway
12:17:42
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
Yes, crazy
12:17:47
gan:skhron.org:
I love the police state of Germany
12:17:54
gan:skhron.org:
the best place ever to exist
12:18:04
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
Germany is almost a socialist dictatorship
12:18:26
gan:skhron.org:
especially when they harass Tor operators, so lovely there!
12:18:27
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
But they are really carrying the boats
12:18:53
gan:skhron.org:
(my server runs on Hetzner 🧌)
12:19:31
Cindy:
EU likes to pretend they care about digital rights
12:19:38
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
What is this? > <Cindy> i just use xcancel
12:19:39
btcdwed:
weiningerjoyer99 https://github.com/zedeus/nitter/wiki/Instances#public
12:19:52
Cindy:
italy giving unrealistic demands to cloudflare, germany raiding tor exit node operators
12:20:07
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
@gan:skhron.org: They literally put them in jail
12:20:08
Cindy:
spain calling grapheneOS a criminal OS
12:20:17
Cindy:
france wanting to ban encryption
12:21:12
gan:skhron.org:
@weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org: Absolutely true - https://forum.torproject.org/t/tor-relays-artikel-5-e-v-another-police-raid-in-germany-general-assembly-on-sep-21st-2024/14533
12:21:14
shitpost:monero.coffee:
denmark chat control
12:21:16
Cindy:
but hey! politicians are exempt from all this
12:21:30
Cindy:
what hypocrites
12:22:10
shitpost:monero.coffee:
their messages should be public instead
12:22:22
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
@gan:skhron.org: They'll do everything in their powers to take over people's freedom
12:22:30
Cindy:
shitpost: but how will they talk to the successor to epstein
12:22:38
Cindy:
and organize diddy parties
12:22:49
Cindy:
c'mon think about them
12:23:40
gan:skhron.org:
@weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org: I'm certain, considering their occasional fights with the Freifunk crowd and meshnet runners
12:24:00
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
Cindy: Epstein was top 3 Mossad agents in history
12:24:35
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
That nigga was a really good agent
12:24:37
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
No cap
12:25:03
gan:skhron.org:
Still nonetheless, Germany have the largest hacker community there, so nothing will go down without a battle
12:25:09
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
And he died by the jewish sword, you gotta respect it
12:28:13
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
Damn, thanks for sharing about XCancel
12:28:26
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
Never heard about it before.
12:28:26
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
Great stuff!
12:29:49
Cindy:
gan: that's why they try to get them hooked on the "open source funding"
12:31:49
Cindy:
if they can get people to think that they'll be funded for making open source stuff, they can later use it against them
12:32:06
Cindy:
by pushing them against making projects with undesirable goals in mind
12:32:19
Cindy:
pushing them away from*
12:33:18
Cindy:
it worked for GNU taler, they literally got that project wrapped around their fingertips
12:33:50
Cindy:
and made it accept shit antithetical against its goals, like KYC for the sender
12:34:46
Bunnyh:
what are these ban lists for monero nodes? is that really a necessary idea and not risky?
12:35:20
Cindy:
Bunnyh: the ban lists are for spy nodes that were detected on the network
12:36:07
Bunnyh:
I understand, that just sounds like a risky thing and potential pretense, but then again I don't fully understand how monero differs from bitcoin in that regard - bitcoin I understand very well since beginning
12:36:13
jobotnik:matrix.org:
What's a spy node?
12:36:32
Bunnyh:
so maybe I'm just not seeing why they really would be more helpful than risky
12:36:42
Cindy:
a node that basically takes note of what IP a transaction originated from
12:36:57
Cindy:
among other shit i think
12:37:45
Bunnyh:
like how can we detect that kind of behavior well enough that it actually would work if people used such ban lists? then the potential abuse of the lists is another matter
12:37:47
Cindy:
they are used to associate transactions to a specific node, which is useful for associating self-hosted nodes
12:38:21
Cindy:
Bunnyh: how much their RPC behavior differs from the official monerod RPC
12:38:30
Cindy:
these lists are made by fellow monero developers
12:38:49
Cindy:
these spy nodes don't actually run their own nodes IIRC
12:38:50
boog900:
Bunnyh: https://github.com/Boog900/p2p-proxy-checker
12:38:51
Bunnyh:
right, but couldn't a spy node fake normal behavior enough to fly off the radar and make the lists useless anyway?
12:38:55
Cindy:
they just forward requests to another one
12:40:30
Cindy:
read what boog900 gave
12:41:23
Cindy:
now if you host your node over I2P or Tor, you don't have to worry about spy nodes
12:41:33
Bunnyh:
ok
12:41:34
Cindy:
because there is no IP address to associate
12:41:47
Cindy:
so and all peers have the same ID, so it's effectively useless
12:42:46
Cindy:
boog900: did i explain it well?
12:45:59
boog900:
Yeah although there is no way to put all communication over Tor onions/ I2p.
12:47:19
uncle_rae:
there isn't?
12:48:27
Cindy:
i don't think we need that
12:48:40
Bunnyh:
I read the link, and well the question remains couldn't the spy node operators counter this by making the peer_ids look right?
12:48:42
Cindy:
we can just have nodes that relay transactions from tor/I2P to clear web
12:48:58
Cindy:
and clear web to tor/I2P
12:49:35
Cindy:
so even if like only 20% of nodes are over tor or I2P, it still gives plausible amount of deniability
12:49:38
boog900:
Bunnyh: Yes and they have for some nodes but they haven't moved their addresses
12:50:03
Bunnyh:
right, so this seems like a losing battle which is what I was thinking about here :/
12:50:27
Bunnyh:
surely they won't remain stupid forever
12:52:15
Cindy:
it is
12:52:28
Cindy:
stuff like this is usually a cat and mouse game
12:52:40
Bunnyh:
can't think of much realistic abuse potential with such lists either, not that it wouldn't exist... hence me being suspicious about whether it's wise to employ such lists if it's a losing battle anyway and the hypothethical abuse potential remains
12:52:43
Cindy:
you detect them, and use that to block them
12:52:51
Cindy:
they learn to evade your detections
12:52:55
Cindy:
and then the cycle repeats
12:53:09
Bunnyh:
guess that's true yes
12:53:34
plowsof:
/join 7678788:matrix.org
12:54:51
Cindy:
Bunnyh: at first, they'll suck and be super easy to detect
12:55:06
Cindy:
but as time goes on, they get better and better
12:55:43
Cindy:
so really, the ultimate solution is to just use some anonymizing overlay
12:55:50
Cindy:
like tor and I2P
12:55:52
Bunnyh:
wouldn't treating such nodes as malicious actors and feeding them innocuous data work better than outright banning them and alerting we know?
12:56:13
Cindy:
they probably already watch the lists anyway
12:56:24
Cindy:
if it's public, they'll know
13:01:13
Bunnyh:
I wonder is the tor option in cake wallet enough for this
13:01:35
Bunnyh:
would always be best to run the real node of course
13:02:36
Cindy:
if you're using a public node (that is not itself a spy node), then you don't really have to worry about spy nodes
13:02:44
Cindy:
a lot of transactions go through public nodes
13:03:01
Cindy:
so i doubt spy nodes care about them because it's hard to associate anything to them
13:25:34
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
Man i stopped programming cause I can't get a job
13:25:39
weiningerenjoyer99:matrix.org:
AI fucking up my shit
13:28:33
Cindy:
they took er jeerb
13:28:42
DataHoarder:
Bunnyh: ban lists are measured by several members for nodes that are not legit, and reduce impact on end users to finding source of transaction broadcasts
13:29:00
DataHoarder:
13:39:34 <Bunnyh> right, but couldn't a spy node fake normal behavior enough to fly off the radar and make the lists useless anyway?
13:29:00
DataHoarder:
they don't
13:29:30
DataHoarder:
14:03:27 <Cindy> a lot of transactions go through public nodes
13:29:30
DataHoarder:
they can look at input->output timings
13:30:15
Bunnyh:
had a job at a crypto company for 10 years, lost it too but just before AI. I was just a bit too lazy :)
13:30:53
Cindy:
was it kraken?
13:30:58
Bunnyh:
obviously my job made monero kinda invisible to me
13:30:59
Cindy:
coinbase?
13:31:13
Cindy:
binance?
13:31:16
Bunnyh:
https://coinmotion.com/
13:31:18
Bunnyh:
finnish company
13:31:37
Bunnyh:
they were getting increasingly cuddly with the regulation of course
13:32:15
uncle_rae:
it's either you get down or lay down
13:32:18
Cindy:
>blocks tor
13:32:24
Cindy:
fuck my goddamn life
13:32:30
Bunnyh:
the site blocks tor?
13:32:34
Cindy:
yes
13:32:36
Bunnyh:
lol
13:32:54
Bunnyh:
well as I said about loving regulation
13:33:25
BlueyHealer:
"Crypto" companies/communities being hostile to anonymity has always been a strange case to me
13:33:28
Anonomys25:
Well, I would assume it wouldn't be surprising, giving that tor was originally a Navy project, plus probably a lot of honeypots behind the scenes
13:33:43
Anonomys25:
though I shouldn't get an opinion about it, I just got here lol
13:35:03
Cindy:
Anonomys25: we were talking about a site :P
13:35:39
Bunnyh:
is that even normal for crypto exchanges? in EU?
13:35:48
Bunnyh:
it's a broker really not an exchange though
13:35:50
Anonomys25:
Cindy ah, I stand corrected on not having an opinion on the matter then lol :p
13:36:16
Cindy:
Bunnyh: so this is like the dime-a-dozen crypto company that treats cryptocurrencies as speculative investments
13:36:19
Cindy:
sigh... amazing
13:36:34
Bunnyh:
pretty much, first tried to be very bitcoin maxi then gave in to alts
13:36:59
Bunnyh:
the company lead researcher last posted about monero in 2018 saying its for criminals :D
13:37:39
moneromooo:
And we're basically soon to be all criminals in the coming fascist world.
13:37:46
DataHoarder:
also, bitcoin does segment its network based on ASN Bunnyh, but monero can't do this as well
13:37:48
Cindy:
Bunnyh: show me the blogpost lol
13:39:08
Cindy:
i'm not surprised they'll say monero is for criminals cuz.. they're europeans
13:39:18
Cindy:
i mean, the EU.. 2027... you guys get the drill now
13:39:59
Bunnyh:
oh it was on X, I don't think they care to talk at all about monero in official blogs :) https://x.com/thlbr/status/956826899992469504 searched his X profile as he likes to hold the bitcoin maxi line there fiercely
13:41:19
Cindy:
google translate to the rescue
13:41:41
Bunnyh:
X has internal translate now too probably with grok
13:42:01
Cindy:
i use xcancel.com
13:42:05
Cindy:
but anyway, wow
13:42:06
moneromooo:
What could possibly go wrong...
13:42:45
Anonomys25:
moneromooo
13:42:47
Anonomys25:
everything
13:43:08
moneromooo:
You are technically correct.
13:43:31
moneromooo:
My favourite kind of correct.
13:44:20
Cindy:
monero is appealing to me because i don't have to deal with KYC or figuring out if my coins are stained or not
13:44:30
Cindy:
that doesn't sound like a criminal thing :P
13:45:04
Anonomys25:
Unfortunately the feds would think otherwise <_<
13:45:09
moneromooo:
grok translate: Monero is appalling to me because i don't get to deal with KYC or figuring out my coins aren't tainted.
13:45:11
Anonomys25:
but monero is good with no kyc
13:45:47
moneromooo:
but monero is no good with no hyc
13:45:56
Cindy:
moneromooo: appalling?
13:46:05
moneromooo:
Puns... My favourite kind of humour...
13:46:06
Anonomys25:
I still need a rig to mine monero ;-;
13:46:08
Cindy:
lol
13:46:13
Cindy:
Anonomys25: a rig?
13:46:20
Cindy:
just mine with your... chromebook
13:46:33
Cindy:
actually no it prpobably has a garbage mobile ARM chip
13:46:48
DataHoarder:
those can be pretty good tbh
13:47:02
Cindy:
yeah i know, hashes per watt
13:47:04
Anonomys25:
Cindy I.... I could do that, except I would need to pretty much factory reset this damn thing since it's the school's.
13:47:16
17lifers:mikuplushfarm.ovh:
try webmining even more hashrate
13:47:16
moneromooo:
Witness my chrome... book! Mining monero mad max style on huge rigs.
13:47:24
Cindy:
if it's the school, literally don't touch it with a 10 foot pole
13:47:25
17lifers:mikuplushfarm.ovh:
xd
13:47:39
Anonomys25:
Cindy yeah no, not going to lol
13:47:40
Bunnyh:
I kinda like the tail emission of monero, but bitcoin maxis are laser focused on the generational wealth aspect and abhor that. and only way to ensure generational wealth over decades appears to be to side with regulation ... facepalm
13:47:51
Anonomys25:
I rather get my own chromebook and slap a Linux distro instead
13:49:14
17lifers:mikuplushfarm.ovh:
get a used business laptop
13:49:35
Cindy:
Bunnyh: currencies with no tail emissions suck
13:49:47
Cindy:
they usually just have like the top 10 richest people hoarding most of the supply
13:49:53
Cindy:
and no new coins coming in
13:50:04
Cindy:
tail emissions ensure that new coins keep coming in to miners
13:50:25
ufo808:matrix.org:
currencies with no cpu mining suck too
13:50:49
17lifers:mikuplushfarm.ovh:
you saying ltc sucks
13:50:59
ufo808:matrix.org:
it's meh
13:51:03
Cindy:
also if everyone HODL'd, the whole currency would fall apart
13:51:09
Cindy:
without tail emissions
13:51:10
17lifers:mikuplushfarm.ovh:
its low fee and used to pay anything xmr doesnt
13:51:27
Cindy:
there would be no fee rewards for miners
13:51:37
Cindy:
so no mining
13:51:56
Cindy:
no incentive to mine*
13:53:44
DataHoarder:
Bunnyh: tail emission makes the monetary amount stay constant long term
13:53:50
DataHoarder:
not inflationary
13:54:05
DataHoarder:
some % of loss happens per year and at some point these two meet up
13:54:21
Cindy:
people would like it if it was inflationary :P
13:54:30
DataHoarder:
inflation fetish
13:54:35
DataHoarder:
wait this is not offtopic
13:54:48
ufo808:matrix.org:
btw 17lifers, if ltc was cpu mining and mining reward were paid in mweb it would be a huge monero competitor
13:54:50
Anonomys25:
Curious Cindy, for coins that uses the tail emissions philosophy for their currencies, wouldn't that also cause a, idk, digital inflation? Forgive me for sounding stupid, one thing I am still learning is how the whole crypto market works in general -_-;
13:55:01
DataHoarder:
14:54:48 <DataHoarder> some % of loss happens per year and at some point these two meet up
13:55:02
Cindy:
luigi1111 predicted that without tail emissions, XMR would be inflationary
13:55:07
Cindy:
for more info, google: luigi inflation
13:55:32
DataHoarder:
there was an article about that, I forget, Rucknium linked it in a different channel I think
13:56:03
DataHoarder:
aha! https://petertodd.org/2022/surprisingly-tail-emission-is-not-inflationary
13:56:03
Cindy:
Anonomys25: i think the tail emissions adjust over time
13:56:14
DataHoarder:
see that link Anonomys25
13:56:56
DataHoarder:
the tail emission is fixed Cindy :D
13:57:06
DataHoarder:
that's what makes it tail emission and not normal emission
13:57:07
Anonomys25:
DataHoarder and I cant access it <_< its blocked for me atm. I will bookmark it for now
13:57:12
Anonomys25:
for now till I am home
13:57:21
DataHoarder:
is archive.org blocked for you?
13:57:30
Anonomys25:
DataHoarder yes
13:57:39
Anonomys25:
Wait, its an article...
13:57:48
Anonomys25:
omg I am stupid, I do have access to archive.is
13:57:56
DataHoarder:
https://archive.is/Ivmra
13:58:25
Anonomys25:
Ah I was going to copy the early link into it, but thank you
13:58:40
Cindy:
i wish i had a lick of tail emissions >:(
13:58:50
Cindy:
too bad when i mine on p2pool, my reward is split across 700 other people
13:58:52
Cindy:
smh
13:58:57
Cindy:
i get like mere cents
13:59:06
DataHoarder:
you get small licks of it
13:59:19
Bunnyh:
even if no loss happened the significance of a fixed tail emission would approach zero
13:59:29
DataHoarder:
yeah, Bunnyh
13:59:36
DataHoarder:
but that'd also make it purely deflationary
14:00:03
DataHoarder:
tail emission although small ends up making it constant effective supply
14:01:11
Bunnyh:
funny how that's a reasonable goal but also impossible to ever verify
14:02:02
DataHoarder:
the loss%? yeah
14:02:39
Bunnyh:
yes, I meant even if that resulted in constant effective supply it would be impossible to directly show it, guess you could try to prove the situation through some other metrics
14:02:44
DataHoarder:
in a PQ Turnstile situation you'd be able to count the magnitude that passed in the direction to PQ https://gist.github.com/jeffro256/146bfd5306ea3a8a2a0ea4d660cd2243
14:03:03
DataHoarder:
(until it's all done)
14:03:22
Anonomys25:
Reading it through twice made me realize I am probably going to have to also use some calculator for some of the equations for coin supply @_@
14:03:22
DataHoarder:
> Optionally, the sum total of migration inputs a can be tracked to further mitigate unintended inflation.
14:04:34
luigi1111:
luigi predicted lots of things. Very rarely, even correct things.
14:04:52
Bunnyh:
I'm fine with a supply that _should_ by logic be constant although it might be impossible to verify that at any moment
14:05:06
Bunnyh:
*effective supply
14:05:54
moneromooo:
luigi inflation is real, back then it was luigi1110.
14:06:16
Bunnyh:
in bitcoin the situation is a dwindling supply everyone pretends to be 21M because "we can't know the real situation"
14:06:45
DataHoarder:
well, it's provably less than that Bunnyh :D
14:06:55
DataHoarder:
due to issuance bugs on blocks that effectively did burn, and other burned stuff
14:07:48
Cindy:
Bunnyh: don't tell me about all the bitcoins stored in lost wallets
14:07:56
Cindy:
or even null addresses
14:08:36
DataHoarder:
or dust split at 1 sat per output :P
14:08:41
ufo808:matrix.org:
Bunnyh: and bitcoin last halving will be in 2140, so it's technically tail emission for your lifespan, or maybe ai will make us immortal
14:08:48
DataHoarder:
from before txs had minimum fee enforced
14:09:05
DataHoarder:
it's not tail emission ufo808:matrix.org but constantly reducing
14:09:18
DataHoarder:
tail emission = fixed rate
14:09:40
ufo808:matrix.org:
yes
14:10:06
Bunnyh:
maybe there's confusion of two meanings of fixed. fixed amount, fixed % addition to supply
14:11:17
Bunnyh:
so in monero we have fixed amount leading to a % that will tend towards 0
14:12:56
moneromooo:
IIRC aeon went the other way.
14:13:08
moneromooo:
(an old monero fork)
14:14:34
DataHoarder:
factorially increasing inflation
14:20:39
Bunnyh:
https://gist.github.com/jeffro256/146bfd5306ea3a8a2a0ea4d660cd2243 heh it's going to be a bit hard to understand that
14:21:51
DataHoarder:
it's just a way to prove Carrot output derivations were generated by you in a post quantum world Bunnyh
14:21:59
DataHoarder:
so you can transfer these to a safe method
14:22:26
DataHoarder:
this needs to be introduced ahead of time (possibly next hardfork that gets FCMP++ and Carrot) so that's why it exists. it may not get used
14:22:30
Cindy:
oh, is carrot quantm-safe?
14:23:15
Cindy:
i thought it was only partially quantum-safe
14:23:51
DataHoarder:
that doesn't mean that.
14:24:02
DataHoarder:
it has safety on core areas and specially around proving derivations
15:12:58
maxlpm:tchncs.de:
Hey everyone, what does "Validating txpool for v9" mean (message from monerod during blockchain sync)
15:15:51
maxlpm:tchncs.de:
Can't find any documentation on what a txpool is
15:16:11
moneromooo:
It's the set of transactions known to the node which aren't in a block yet.
15:16:11
Cindy:
a pool full of transactions to be put on blocks
15:17:13
moneromooo:
Validating means checking the txes for adherence to version 9 consensus rules.
15:17:56
moneromooo:
v9 seems old. IIRC we're at like 16 or more. So your node must be syncing historical stuff atm.
15:18:02
maxlpm:tchncs.de:
Is this a Monero thing or a general crypto thing?
15:18:42
moneromooo:
It seems like something other coins would probably do as well, but they might do it differently.
15:19:56
moneromooo:
If this is while syncing, it may be monero specific, as monero consensus rules can change with time, so a tx that is valid at some height may not be valid later on, so switching to a newer ruleset means a tx in the pool may need to be discarded.
15:20:21
moneromooo:
For example, a monero particularity is the minimum ring size, which has been increased from time to time.
15:20:44
maxlpm:tchncs.de:
Ah, got it. Yeah, I'm syncing a pruned blockchain on an HDD from the ground up. Thank you!
15:20:45
moneromooo:
So a tx with ring size, say, 7, might stop being valid if not mined before consensus rules bump the minimum ring size past this.
15:24:35
moneromooo:
FWIW, syncing to a HDD will be slow. If you can, sync to a SSD temporarily then move the chain to the HDD.
15:25:09
Cindy:
where's that sub-hour sync from cuprate
15:25:13
moneromooo:
Also use --sync-pruned-blocks if you're not doing so yet, saves bandwidth if you'll prune anyway.
15:25:48
moneromooo:
Are you making a claim it syncs a pruned chain in less an an hour ?
15:26:09
boog900:
full
15:26:14
boog900:
full chain
15:26:29
moneromooo:
That's excellent if so.
15:27:05
boog900:
I have done it under 2 on an HDD
15:27:21
moneromooo:
Woukd you happen to know where the monerod bottlebeck is ?
15:27:30
moneromooo:
(or bottlenecks)
15:27:50
boog900:
for HDD? its LMDB
15:27:54
lordx3nu:matrix.org:
@boog900: Wow really
15:28:29
moneromooo:
As in... random access writes ?
15:28:43
moneromooo:
(and or reads ?)
15:29:09
kayabanerve:matrix.org:
C++ is a fine, high-level language for simple scripts and apps like Python is, but for real systems programming, you want to be close to the metal like Rust. /s
15:30:03
moneromooo:
While I do not know rust, this seems like a fanciful claim.
15:30:25
DataHoarder:
Rust is a fine, high-level language for simple scripts and apps like PHP is, but for real systems programming, you want to be close to the metal like Scratch. /s
15:31:30
boog900:
yeah, its the writes. Over the past few months I spent some time improving Cuprate's database: https://repo.getmonero.org/monero-project/ccs-proposals/-/merge_requests/611#note_33930
15:31:30
boog900:
We used to use LMDB too but in our next update I will be moving from it.
15:32:39
moneromooo:
Thanks. And the bottleneck for SSDs ? Hopefully not just more parallelization...
15:38:53
maxlpm:tchncs.de:
Wait, what's the default behaviour? My current command is monerod --data-dir $dir --check-updates disabled --max-concurrency 2, which is basically the same command that monero-wallet-gui runs but without --non-interactive and --detach. I thought that the GUI wallet prunes by default? > <moneromooo> Also use --sync-pruned-blocks if you're not doing so yet, saves bandwidth if you'll prune anyway.
15:39:12
ravfx:xmr.mx:
DataHoarder: I was sure that Rust was like the only contender beside C, that could do that.
15:41:14
ravfx:xmr.mx:
C++ is indeed, slower than C and Rust in General (it's more bloated too, when you look at the size of the binaries)
15:41:30
maxlpm:tchncs.de:
(note for my message above: I'm replying to moneromooo's message about --sync-pruned-blocks, but it seems that IRC doesn't support Matrix replies?)
15:41:40
ravfx:xmr.mx:
But C++ can't be compared to P*thon lol
15:41:56
ravfx:xmr.mx:
P*thon is way slower and way more anoying to use
15:43:33
boog900:
moneromooo: I think that is harder to say, I don't know if it is just one thing, for example, the move from LMDB got syncing 2x faster on an SSD from 2 to 1 hr.
15:43:33
boog900:
Locking was an issue in the past when monerod had some load, I wouldn't be surprised if that was also a slow down for sync. Cuprate handles DB access without locks. We also fast sync with very little DB reads, just using a cache.
15:44:10
kayabanerve:matrix.org:
C++ and Python are both scripted languages with runtimes. Do you remember the Python 2 -> Python 3 controversy that last a decade?
15:44:11
kayabanerve:matrix.org:
Python 2 only exists because it was a breaking-change upgrade to C++ (Python 1). While 2 -> 3 took a decade, that's only because it was so much better than the last breaking change, which is still ongoing some 30 years later.
15:44:11
kayabanerve:matrix.org:
So yeah, C++ and Python are basically the same.
15:44:22
kayabanerve:matrix.org:
/s of course lol
15:45:02
ravfx:xmr.mx:
@kayabanerve:matrix.org: Sure, maybe only one or two order(s) of magniture difference in the term of performance, if not more
15:45:20
kayabanerve:matrix.org:
But using a language which allows very strongly expressing parallelism, without the overhead of a runtime, and all of the DB work boog900 has done? Plus the benefit of hindsight?
15:46:05
ravfx:xmr.mx:
Python have incompatibility even between minors
15:46:05
ravfx:xmr.mx:
venv everywhere™
15:46:40
ravfx:xmr.mx:
@boog900: What do you think it might be ready for production
15:47:09
ravfx:xmr.mx:
when**
15:47:10
DataHoarder:
tbh. once it has the limited RPC that p2pool needs (or equivalent) and ZMQ or event based system :P
15:47:24
DataHoarder:
that way small miners can benefit from it
15:47:48
Cindy:
yes
15:47:53
Cindy:
we have HDDs, y'know
15:48:06
Cindy:
this would be super cool for us
15:48:23
DataHoarder:
pfff
15:48:26
DataHoarder:
use ramdisk
15:48:33
Cindy:
we also have 4 GB of RAM
15:48:38
Cindy:
or less
15:49:33
boog900:
I would say feature parity this year, production is harder to say.
15:50:17
Cindy:
though using bits and pieces off of cuprate is an amazing thing
15:55:45
boog900:
I think an extensive testing framework to generate any possible tx then making sure monerod and cuprated both see the txs as valid/invalid is needed. Seen as Monero doesn't have a written protocol we can't really have an audit for if we mach behavior.
15:56:34
ravfx:xmr.mx:
Nice, so you could have a thing that monitor both and send alert in case there is disagement or something. That's useful
16:04:00
ravfx:xmr.mx:
** Maintainance in xmr.mx infrastructure **
16:04:00
ravfx:xmr.mx:
(Disabling NVMe power saving in every NVMe device).
16:04:00
ravfx:xmr.mx:
Got another Samsung event yesterday
16:14:13
DataHoarder:
boog900: yeah, tx fuzzer with knowledge of how to do signatures. I have done a bit on my Go code on that part and some of the code comes from oxide other from monero. Passing all monero txs just means that it can handle what monero verified
16:14:26
DataHoarder:
it's hard to verify the opposite as you don't have a readily available test set
16:15:08
DataHoarder:
I have some edge case point generator for generating test cases, but, will it find one tx that is handled differently? that's the fun part :)
16:24:22
maxlpm:tchncs.de:
Is there a way to view how many peers you're connected to while monerod is syncing?
16:26:07
ravfx:xmr.mx:
@maxlpm:tchncs.de: monerod status will give you a small sumary including the number of in and out peers
16:27:01
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
For a more detailed, you can do monerod print_cn and monerod sync_info
16:27:42
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
You can also type the commands (status, print_cn, sync_info) directly into the console
16:48:03
luigi1111:
https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/5KV2CExu/image.png
16:48:20
luigi1111:
moneromooo> luigi inflation is real, back then it was luigi1110. <= yeah I'm 15 now
16:48:52
Cindy:
i'm 12 and this is deep
16:48:55
luigi1111:
uh oops
16:53:15
plowsof:
Happy birthday
17:29:28
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
What helps the network more ? Hosting a node ? or mining ?
17:30:12
ofrnxmr:
Mining
17:30:40
ofrnxmr:
Theres a bit of a bell curve tho
17:41:22
ravfx:xmr.mx:
All the stuff is getting back online, sorry for the big delay, Updated the host to trixie and of course /etc/sysctl.conf vanished and now it's /etc/sysctl.d/xx-blah.conf
17:41:23
ravfx:xmr.mx:
So forwarding was gone
17:42:40
imprevisto:matrix.org:
luigi you're about to hit your nibble bug, will the network be ok
18:27:45
maxlpm:tchncs.de:
If I start syncing from scratch using the --sync-pruned-blocks and --prune-blockchain flags with monerod, will the downloaded blockchain already be pruned or does it have to download the whole blockchain and then prune it?
18:37:48
ravfx:xmr.mx:
@maxlpm:tchncs.de: Yes, it only sync pruned block instead of downloding full block then pruning them locally
18:41:56
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
It will still dowload full blocks when you dont have access to the prune ones
18:42:41
ravfx:xmr.mx:
Oh, that's good to know, so it depend of the peers you randomly connect to?
18:45:51
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Yea
19:20:32
Bunnyh:
what do you think about mining at a net loss power cost wise, is that more sensible for monero compared to how it made little sense with bitcoin?
19:21:13
Bunnyh:
the idea being you can always just buy it instead of mining at a loss
19:21:58
DataHoarder:
you can mine your own coins here for yourself in secret
19:22:02
DataHoarder:
besides power
19:22:02
Bunnyh:
which should counter the common assumption that mining at a loss can make sense because it can increase in value
19:22:10
Bunnyh:
but for monero buying might be harder?
19:22:55
Bunnyh:
and yeah leave that trace which is possibly not so desired
19:24:57
DataHoarder:
you can get monero and straight out start pushing it into VPN or other things
19:43:41
Bunnyh:
https://polymarket.com/event/will-monero-hit-1000-in-2026/will-monero-hit-1000-in-2026
19:43:47
Bunnyh:
they didn't have any monero bets active earlier
19:44:06
Cindy:
LET'S GO GAMBLING!!!
19:44:17
Anonomys25:
aww dang it :<
19:47:45
snake:
what happened?
19:47:57
BlueyHealer:
do they require KYC to gamble?
19:49:36
Bunnyh:
no
19:51:29
Bunnyh:
it's strictly about binance price though
19:51:43
Bunnyh:
the rules there are always full of traps
19:52:04
Bunnyh:
even if the oracle system could be relied on which doesn't seem that certain either
19:52:49
Anonomys25:
I keep hearing of the Oracle system lately, like the company Oracle?
19:52:57
Anonomys25:
Or some Oracle cult thing I am missing
19:53:03
Anonomys25:
genuine question btw @_@
19:58:56
Bunnyh:
https://uma.xyz/
19:59:01
Bunnyh:
it's what they use for resolution
20:26:43
maxlpm:tchncs.de:
Hi again! I recently found out that Monero encourages development with bounties and a CCS, and was wondering if there is a need for new/improved documentation for the user-facing side of things. From what I've gathered so far, the "official" docs for users are scattered across docs.getmonero.org and www.getmonero.org/resources [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/z_ba5twKX2VYYnY4 ]
20:47:53
yokoama:matrix.org:
top > <Bunnyh> https://polymarket.com/event/will-monero-hit-1000-in-2026/will-monero-hit-1000-in-2026
21:04:19
moneromooo:
"oracle" in this context is named after the mythological concept and means an external input.
21:04:30
Cindy:
no matter how high the price is, how low the price is
21:04:34
Cindy:
i'll stick by monero
21:04:37
Cindy:
cuz i'm not a moonboy
21:04:44
Cindy:
(or accurately moongirl)
21:05:03
moneromooo:
So, basically something arbitrary that is not derived from consensus.
21:09:34
hooftly:matrix.org:
polymarket uses UMAs optomistic oracle. Its just a bonding system that votes if someone lies. So call oracle to resolve and bonders say yes or no and if they lie someone can post a bond to challenge and if they win the liars get slashed and the challenger and voters who didnt get paid. Polymarket pays UMA UMA pays the bonded users.
22:20:16
intr:unredacted.org:
what's the state of polyseed support in monero-gui/monero-cli?
22:21:23
Cindy:
you mean the format that encodes the seed, block height and checksum?
22:21:32
intr:unredacted.org:
indeed
22:21:44
Cindy:
yeah that's pretty much the main seed format
22:21:57
intr:unredacted.org:
it's supported by feather and I believe monerujo, but not the official wallet yet afaik
22:22:06
Cindy:
nah i use the official wallet
22:22:09
Cindy:
it uses polyseed everywhere
22:22:19
Cindy:
even when you're creating a new wallet
22:22:33
intr:unredacted.org:
well, not cli
22:22:40
intr:unredacted.org:
I'm counting 25 words, not 16
22:23:33
Cindy:
weird
22:24:49
Cindy:
oh wait, 25 words?
22:24:55
Cindy:
that's what the polyseed is
22:24:59
Cindy:
it has 25 words
22:26:10
Cindy:
or maybe i'm dumb
22:26:46
Cindy:
oh yeah, polyseed is 16 words..... sorry
22:26:50
Cindy:
i was just dumb
22:27:59
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Polyseed is 16 words
22:28:14
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Official / cli and gui dont support it
22:28:25
Cindy:
yeah i see that now, sorry
22:28:29
Cindy:
i didn't do my research :(
22:28:40
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Anonero, monfluo, cake/monero.com, feather, stack, support polyseed
22:28:49
Cindy:
i guess monero official just supports the 25 word traditional seed
22:28:51
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Monerujo doesnt
22:29:24
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Cindy: Yeah. The spec for polyseed's encrypted seed vs offsets wasnt decided on
22:37:37
intr:unredacted.org:
shame