06:03:32
BlueyHealer:
jpk68 | I'm sure everyone has already heard this, but Discord is doing this exact same 'interactive selfie' thing <- I am VERY intrigued by the fact that it is supposed to be on-device. If it's on-device - what prevents one from modifying the app to always say "yes"? I can't wait for writeups, that's such a learning opportunity.
06:27:33
neromonero1024:
on-device? really? I thought they're sending the camera feed to their server where the AI inference takes place
06:32:26
BlueyHealer:
https://support.discord.com/hc/en-us/articles/30326565624343-How-to-Complete-Age-Assurance-on-Discord says "Discord and k-ID do not permanently store personal identity documents or your video selfies. Images of your identity documents and ID match selfies are deleted directly after your age group is confirmed, and the video selfie used for facial age estimation never leaves your device". However, I
06:32:28
BlueyHealer:
am indeed skeptical of this. But if someone was to dissect the app, worst case scenario it proves they're lying, best case scenario a patch to bypass it is possible.
06:33:21
BlueyHealer:
The ID verification 100% does go to the servers though, both from their words and from the fact they leaked.
06:43:19
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
it's not on device > <BlueyHealer> jpk68 | I'm sure everyone has already heard this, but Discord is doing this exact same 'interactive selfie' thing <- I am VERY intrigued by the fact that it is supposed to be on-device. If it's on-device - what prevents one from modifying the app to always say "yes"? I can't wait for writeups, that's such a learning opportunity.
06:43:33
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
they just lie to you and say it is
06:45:37
BlueyHealer:
Yeah, but still hope someone PROVES it, because that seems doable to prove.
06:50:42
BlueyHealer:
I'm kinda surprised I'm not seeing writeups, given it
06:50:45
BlueyHealer:
given it
06:50:56
BlueyHealer:
given it's apparently already there
13:15:13
snjya:matrix.org:
Hey guys, its me again from the morning. I decided to close my kraken account after doing some thinking and reading. If xmr is made illegal in future will kraken tell the government that I had bought xmr long after my kraken account is closed,?
13:16:10
elongated:matrix.org:
@snjya:matrix.org: Yes
13:16:54
snjya:matrix.org:
Oh
13:18:48
snjya:matrix.org:
I read xmr was made illegal in Europe. Those who had already bought xmr in Europe from kraken.. what happened after illegalization?
13:18:49
elongated:matrix.org:
@snjya:matrix.org: Consider anything you have done on Internet as a permanent record.
13:19:20
elongated:matrix.org:
@snjya:matrix.org: You can contact EU three letter agencies and ask them
13:20:01
BlueyHealer:
I wouldn't be absolutist like that. There can be enough obfuscation to be "good enough", how much - depends on the situation.
13:20:21
nioc:
laws don't make things retroactively illegal
13:20:43
elongated:matrix.org:
nioc: Sometimes they do it 😓
13:21:00
snjya:matrix.org:
I am talking about the people who had already bought xmr on kraken. Are they okay or what?
13:21:42
moneromooo:
Monero isn't illegal in the EU AFAIK. There are just (onerous) regulations about them.
13:21:46
snjya:matrix.org:
nioc: So the European xmr buyers are okay now? Did they receive letter or something to hand back the xmr they had bought?
13:21:52
nioc:
what I bought is long gone
13:22:36
nioc:
there is no current law or any proposed that makes it illegal to have monero
13:23:04
ofrnxmr:
What about laws against not owning monero
13:23:26
moneromooo:
If it were to be made illegal, there would likely be either a delay between this being known and the law coming into effect (so time to sell) or a builtin delay left for users to sell written in the law.
13:23:56
moneromooo:
There is precedent for this in the US: people were forced to sell their gold to the US govt about a hundred years ago IIRC.
13:23:57
nioc:
ofrn what laws
13:24:11
ofrnxmr:
@snjya:matrix.org: The only example of this, is likely when someone buys om a centralized exchange and does NOT withdraw
13:24:25
nioc:
euro laws deal with businesses
13:24:45
nioc:
not individuals
13:24:56
moneromooo:
A law against not owning monero would be... very wtf.
13:25:11
ofrnxmr:
when the exchange delists, you have a set amount of time to withdraw, otherwise they take/liquidate your xmr and give you something else
13:25:33
snjya:matrix.org:
I read on twitter that its illegal.. So what if someone has xmr on their windows tablet.. Won't such a tablet get seized or something? > <moneromooo> Monero isn't illegal in the EU AFAIK. There are just (onerous) regulations about them.
13:25:47
ofrnxmr:
its not illegal in EU
13:25:50
nioc:
I read on twitter uh
13:26:23
snjya:matrix.org:
This is what I want to know, too. Can some European chime in,? > <@ofrnxmr> What about laws against not owning monero
13:26:31
ofrnxmr:
Exchanges just don't want to (or know how to) sell it while also complying with EU's trash regulations
13:26:31
nioc:
good thing you found your way here
13:27:12
ofrnxmr:
Easier to delist monero, than to get fined for not understanding nonsense regulations
13:27:43
ofrnxmr:
This is for exchanges though, not for owners or users of monero. Monero isn't illegal
13:28:19
nioc:
the yearly monero conference is held in Europe so.....
13:29:45
snjya:matrix.org:
moneromooo: Has something like this occurred before? Will kraken tell the IRS or someone about the past buyers of xmr long after the buyers have closed their account? I plan to close mine soon...
13:31:16
gan:skhron.org:
It's better to read actual laws
13:31:26
moneromooo:
You seem to be flailing. If I were you, I would try to think about this rather than react to (mis)interpreting random things and bouncing to another.
13:31:27
BlueyHealer:
nioc: laws don't make things retroactively illegal <- yes they do. Like, people have been fined/imprisoned for thigs they said on social media years ago because it's a "continuous crime".
13:32:13
BlueyHealer:
Also I got the impression that the European laws were specifically against *accepting* Monero, not just owning or using it individually.
13:32:50
moneromooo:
If Kraken receives a valid subpoena for this, and if they don't fight it or lose a fight about it, they will send that info.
13:33:00
nioc:
businesses not individuals
13:33:11
moneromooo:
This has happened before AFAIK, though I don't recall any specifics. It was about Bitcoin taxes IIRC.
13:34:00
snjya:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr: I know kraken use to sell xmr to Europeans..So those Europeans who had already bought something are okay now or got fined or something?!
13:34:30
moneromooo:
Jesus. As I said, engage brain and think instead of just filling said brain with whatever someone told you last.
13:34:32
ofrnxmr:
Theyre fine
13:34:56
nioc:
again it does not apply to individuals
13:35:33
moneromooo:
Sorry to be a bit blunt, but your behaviour is prime target for any scammer. When you read some info, think about it critically.
13:35:36
snjya:matrix.org:
I like this app too... Its like WhatsApp group without phone number.. > <nioc> good thing you found your way here
13:35:53
moneromooo:
(whether related to monero or anything else)
13:36:24
moneromooo:
Maybe I'm misreading, apologies if I am.
13:36:26
ofrnxmr:
moneromooo: send me your seed and kraken login, i'll sort it out
13:37:08
snjya:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr: Okay, thanks for clarifying. Will kraken retain the list of buyers of xmr as probable users of xmr in expectations of future laws here?
13:37:34
ofrnxmr:
@snjya:matrix.org: They maintain a list of everything you buy and sell, period
13:37:51
nioc:
makes a cup of tea
13:38:02
moneromooo:
Kraken needs to retain some info for regulatory/audit purposes. How long, I don't know, but it's 99% certain they keep some info about you after you close your account.
13:38:36
ofrnxmr:
this isnt about xmr
13:38:42
snjya:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr: Their policy states that they retain it for 5 years only.
13:38:53
moneromooo:
I believe the IRC has already obtained info about bitcoin buyers from... coinbase I believe ? and then gone to check their taxes.
13:38:57
plowsof:
ill stand in as a european for questioning
13:39:16
ofrnxmr:
plowsof: Arent yoy from khazakstan tho?
13:39:56
ofrnxmr:
moneromooo: Yes, i recall this as well
13:39:58
moneromooo:
The thing is, they have the ability to keep that info.
13:40:21
moneromooo:
So you should *assume* they will and that info will get to the IRS or whatever.
13:40:26
ufo808:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr: borat is a fun movie
13:40:54
moneromooo:
Also looking at what happened before in similar cases is often instructive
13:41:08
moneromooo:
For instance, forced gold sales in the US.
13:41:25
moneromooo:
Owning gold *was* illegal after a period of forced buy back I believe.
13:41:35
snjya:matrix.org:
How can I confirm that they retain or delete? Especially the list of buyers of xmr.. > <moneromooo> Kraken needs to retain some info for regulatory/audit purposes. How long, I don't know, but it's 99% certain they keep some info about you after you close your account.
13:42:21
moneromooo:
Again, *think* critically. How do you think anyone but them could tell you ? How could one, even them, tell whether their policy on this will change ?
13:42:45
ofrnxmr:
@snjya:matrix.org: They maintain a list of all buyers of all coins
13:43:10
snjya:matrix.org:
Okay, so I need to assume they will know I bought xmr a while ago and will tell that to the monerogestapo in future.. Thanks. So what do I do now? > <moneromooo> So you should *assume* they will and that info will get to the IRS or whatever.
13:43:28
ofrnxmr:
They know you bought xmr
13:43:46
ofrnxmr:
Its literally probably still listed on your account history, viewable by you
13:44:07
moneromooo:
Now, the best course of action is to assume there will be no monerogestapo, because it's seriously unlikely people will be hunted for having bought monero in the future, even in fucked up USA-stan now.
13:44:19
ofrnxmr:
On one kf my exchange accounts, i can see purchases that i made in 2017
13:44:54
moneromooo:
If your jurodiction ever moves to make owning monero illegal at some point, just sell it, and you should be just fine.
13:46:29
moneromooo:
And here jurisdiction is an important concept: you don't *care* about EU laws if its the IRS you're concerned about.
13:47:41
moneromooo:
So stop being a deer in the headlights here. That light you're seeing is not an oncoming truck, it's a bloody firefly dancing in front of your eyes.
13:47:59
snjya:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr: Yes, I can see it. I can't even hide it.. Unlike my JPM checking.
13:49:52
snjya:matrix.org:
Do any countries have a monerogestapo? Or are working on something like that? I was told earlier that once I move it to my windows wallet kraken will not be able to trace it anymore! > <moneromooo> Now, the best course of action is to assume there will be no monerogestapo, because it's seriously unlikely people will be hunted for having bought monero in the future, even in fucked up USA-stan now.
13:52:01
snjya:matrix.org:
moneromooo: But.. I don't want to sell it.. I just bought it because my bitcoin balance was visible when I googled my btc address!
13:52:44
snjya:matrix.org:
moneromooo: Okay, I get it. It looks like I am overreacting to myself. Thanks.
13:52:48
moneromooo:
Totally.
13:54:45
moneromooo:
I assume you're in the US from what you said. You have a *much* higher probability to get into trouble by being brown or trans than by using monero.
13:55:36
ufo808:matrix.org:
no monerogestapo, only moneropride ^.^
13:58:45
snjya:matrix.org:
moneromooo: Thank god I am white, xoxo. I just googled to see if any countries have made it illegal to posses xmr. Apparently not. Do you know if there is a mailing list I can subscribe to.. that keeps me up-to-date on the current legal status of monero xmr?
14:00:44
moneromooo:
I assume if you don't close your kraken account, they'd tell you if it's coming in advance. They did for EU people.
14:02:18
moneromooo:
It was more like "due to regulations, we can't be bothered offering it anymore". This will be a first warning if things are getting a bit closer to illegal. Not that I expect them to be, given the way the US reveres money.
14:02:53
snjya:matrix.org:
moneromooo: Okay, so you propose I retain my kraken account to be up-to-date on the legality of owning xmr.. Sounds like a plan!
14:03:19
moneromooo:
For clarity I mean: the way it revers money as speech (though free speech is being sucker punched there so..)
14:03:52
moneromooo:
I do not. I am just answering the question about a heads up. It's one of the arguments you'd use as input to decide whether to close or not
14:05:09
moneromooo:
This is again indicating of bouncing to whatever you heard last. Recipe for fucking up. Take some time to think before deciding,
14:06:15
moneromooo:
Also, there are undoable decisions and final ones. Deciding to do something that's undoable is easier than deciding to do something that's not undoable.
14:06:59
moneromooo:
Closing the account is harder to undo than not closing it, since you can always close it later, wherewas creating another could be a pain.
14:08:46
snjya:matrix.org:
Yea okay, I will think about it. The only reason I created a kraken account was because none of my investment advisors could buy me xmr. I have so much to learn. I will decide when I learn more. Thanks for all the help!
14:09:24
snjya:matrix.org:
Good bye for now you guys.
14:09:49
moneromooo:
np, and remember to keep your keys safe (both meanings: ensuring accessiblity from you, and ensuring non-accessibility from others).
14:11:26
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
there are moreEUR offers on RetoSwap and it is transacted more than USD. Euro people don't care. > <@snjya:matrix.org> This is what I want to know, too. Can some European chime in,?
14:11:54
snjya:matrix.org:
Yes, I have done this! My tablet has biometric lock.. It won't even login without me sitting literally in front of it! 🥰🥰🥰
14:13:33
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Looks like it's more USA-Reich from what I saw. > <moneromooo> Now, the best course of action is to assume there will be no monerogestapo, because it's seriously unlikely people will be hunted for having bought monero in the future, even in fucked up USA-stan now.
14:14:16
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Or don't. How the hell could they get to you anyways ? Just practice good opsec and carry on. > <moneromooo> If your jurodiction ever moves to make owning monero illegal at some point, just sell it, and you should be just fine.
14:15:13
moneromooo:
"How the hell could they get to you anyways" - because they gave their info to kraken, so it can be assumed to be available to the govt upon subpoena (or less than that if the current fall continues).
14:16:27
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
moneromooo: "Monero ? Oh some crypto ? I think I sold it 5 years ago for [insert shitcoin or shit fiat]".
22:53:44
nioc:
to the question, why Brazil? on that ven diagram > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil_(1985_film)