00:00:06
Cindy:
no, there's no way to verify if it's been used
00:00:16
BoBeR182:
once you share it, how do you prevent them from spending it
00:00:19
BoBeR182:
and saying it was used
00:00:22
Cindy:
unless you mail the gift card to them, without ever scratching it off
00:00:32
BoBeR182:
and you might as well mail cash then
00:00:43
BoBeR182:
they can always lie and say it showed up scratched off
00:01:20
BoBeR182:
plus what if the giftcard was purchased with fraudulent funds like a stolen CC
00:01:33
BoBeR182:
and then it's revocked a few weeks later by the victim
00:01:47
Cindy:
that's even worse
00:01:48
BoBeR182:
just stick to irreversible transaction methods when buying or selling crypto
00:01:54
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
BoBeR182: ok. I didnt' think about that actually.
00:02:15
nioc:
<kiersten5821:matrix.org> so if the fcmp transactions are 7.2 kb and the block size is still at 300 then it's cooked in terms of tps right? <<>> the non penalty block size will increase with FCMP++ but I forget the exact #
00:02:23
BoBeR182:
you're asking for no-KYC (so anyone can spin up new accounts) and a high fraud rate (giftcards)
00:02:27
BoBeR182:
bad idea
00:02:35
Cindy:
we've had someone here who asked if they could do CCs in P2P
00:02:35
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
nioc: 625kb
00:02:46
nioc:
meow
00:02:47
Cindy:
and stated that they owned the card (yeah right)
00:02:48
BoBeR182:
Cindy: you can, but they usually have high af fees
00:02:56
BoBeR182:
and force every protection like 3ds etc
00:02:57
Cindy:
that was super suspicious
00:03:04
BoBeR182:
2fa codes to the phone number etc
00:03:07
BoBeR182:
to prevent stolen CCs
00:03:08
Cindy:
also this guy said he had an american credit card
00:03:12
Cindy:
but sometimes spoke russian
00:03:21
Cindy:
i was thinking he just stole a credit card
00:03:22
BoBeR182:
yea, just move on
00:03:37
nioc:
Cindy: we have russians here, we have everybody here
00:03:55
BoBeR182:
some users are bilingual
00:04:06
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
will cake wallet (or some other service) let you buy some other altcoins from them directly with a prepaid card? then just swap to XMR?
00:04:06
BoBeR182:
I wouldn't instantly attribute a subset of languages to fraud
00:04:13
plowsof:
some humans even lurk here
00:04:19
nioc:
meow
00:04:40
BoBeR182:
just use a KYC creditcard > BTC , then a noKYC btc > xmr
00:04:48
BoBeR182:
anything else is dumber and risky
00:04:54
Cindy:
BoBeR182: your exchange account will get frozen
00:05:09
BoBeR182:
wut?
00:05:16
BoBeR182:
move the BTC to your phone frist
00:05:23
BoBeR182:
then move to over P2P to someone else
00:05:29
BoBeR182:
how will that freeze your exchange account
00:05:49
BoBeR182:
even if that person uses the BTC on a honeypot darknetmarket
00:05:50
Cindy:
they can freeze you from ever buying BTC :P
00:05:54
BoBeR182:
it's 2 + hopes away from you
00:06:04
BoBeR182:
why would a KYC stop your from buying BTC?
00:06:12
BoBeR182:
that's literally how they make their money
00:06:25
Cindy:
CEXs like to track down where you send your BTC to
00:06:28
Cindy:
and when it ends up
00:06:33
Cindy:
if it ends up something bad, you get incriminated
00:06:44
BoBeR182:
but any BTC can do that
00:06:49
Cindy:
exactly
00:06:59
BoBeR182:
they clearly accept the risk
00:07:13
BoBeR182:
you don't heard normie users having exchanges frozen from normal transactions
00:07:19
BoBeR182:
so why would yours be any different
00:07:37
BoBeR182:
you bought BTC with a credit card, moved it to a personal wallet, then moved it to a p2p exchange
00:07:49
BoBeR182:
you could even move it to another CEX and buy XMR directly
00:07:54
BoBeR182:
then move the XMR to a phone wallet
00:07:58
BoBeR182:
and trail is gone
00:08:07
BoBeR182:
just don't do XMR > illegal service
00:08:19
BoBeR182:
just don't do CEX XMR wallet > illegal service wallet
00:08:56
plowsof:
👮 illegal service sir? no thank you
00:09:16
BoBeR182:
if you're trying to avoid the risk of someone else illegal activities tainting yoru coins, just bump to your own wallet first to "clean" or deattach them from previous history
00:09:21
BoBeR182:
XMR is great for that
00:09:27
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
because the BTC blockchain is transparent. chain analysis would be able to determine where the BTC is going (to be swapped for XMR) even if its a few hops. if a user does this over and over, it might come off as suspicious. thats probably when the kyc account gets flagged/frozen. > <BoBeR182> how will that freeze your exchange account
00:09:49
BoBeR182:
buying XMR isn't illegal?
00:10:03
BoBeR182:
unless it is in your juristriction then you have other issues like talking in a #monero channel
00:10:23
BoBeR182:
most CEX even allow buying XMR directly
00:10:25
BoBeR182:
just do that?
00:12:15
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Buying xmr isnt the problem
00:12:57
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Its depositing no-kyc btc, mixed, dirty, tainted, racist, terrorist btc
00:13:28
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
BoBeR182: sure, some CEXs allow this. but i've always wondered: wouldn't this make you suspicious to the government from the beginning? if you use a CEX KYC exchange and buy XMR directly. now the government knows you have XMR. regardless of whatever your plans are with it, they KNOW you have it. i feel like even that is a risk.
00:13:56
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
exchanges that deal in surveillance blockchains, are often mandated to perform dragnet surveillance on the coins that you deposit or withdraw
00:14:34
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@cranial_luminance:matrix.org: Who cares? Im allowed to have xmr, gold, silver, a per rock collection, or whatever i feel like
00:14:48
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
What im not allowed to do, is be in posession of stolen goods (tainted btc)
00:19:52
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
"Who cares?" is a fair question. but lets be honest with ourselves here: 1. the government probably does care, even if they don't admit it, and we should assume they do care. 2. if we had the choice between buying XMR directly from a KYC CEX or getting as anonymously as possible to where not even the government knows we have i [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/hNP8tt8KZkhrd3A4 ]
00:20:34
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
just throwing ideas out there
00:22:12
Cindy:
ofrnxmr: "Who cares?" the EU certainly does care
00:22:21
Cindy:
2027 2027 2027 2027
00:22:29
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
the gov doesn't care about you buying, it cares about you selling
00:22:46
Cindy:
no it cares about both
00:23:00
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
@kiersten5821:matrix.org: for now. but remember: laws change
00:33:10
BoBeR182:
you talk about "the govt" as it was one entity
00:33:22
BoBeR182:
the US government might care under one department the IRS
00:33:45
BoBeR182:
but if you are using you wageslave job to fund buying XMR, and never bring XMR into your CEX and trade for fiat
00:33:56
BoBeR182:
there's no reason to think you are running a business and evading taxes
00:34:16
BoBeR182:
the FBI/etc might care about your XMR if you buy lots and are associated with drug dealing
00:34:26
Cindy:
the EU cares now
00:34:33
BoBeR182:
but generally speaking investing in crypto both private and nonprivacy isn't illegal
00:34:42
Cindy:
they are planning to ban anyone from accepting anonymity-preserving coins
00:34:44
BoBeR182:
as long as you pay any capital gains or business income tax on it
00:34:48
Cindy:
which includes monero
00:34:58
BoBeR182:
Cindy: plan to, and have banned isn't the same
00:35:01
Cindy:
why am i seing planning
00:35:02
Cindy:
saying*
00:35:14
BoBeR182:
still multiple governments exists that have to work with multiple CEXs
00:35:14
Cindy:
their deadline is 2027
00:35:17
BoBeR182:
it's not one magic database
00:35:36
Cindy:
when 2027 hits, they will start enforcing the ban
00:35:42
Cindy:
so right now, the ban is just for show
00:35:43
BoBeR182:
each access for information will require a warrant, or at least an analyst to approve a "national security warrentless look"
00:36:03
BoBeR182:
all that still requires work and effort
00:36:09
nioc:
others have a different opinion about what will happen in 2027
00:36:24
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
superintelligent AI will take over the world
00:36:29
BoBeR182:
you can use XMR openly and not break the law
00:36:33
BoBeR182:
look at mullvad
00:36:35
BoBeR182:
they accept XMR
00:36:39
BoBeR182:
over a .onion at that
00:36:46
BoBeR182:
and they have no magical govt raids
00:37:37
nioc:
what does superintelligent AI think about monero?
00:37:44
BoBeR182:
why don't you ask it?
00:37:55
nioc:
it doesn't exist
00:38:18
BoBeR182:
monero not existing seems like the perfect usecase
00:38:22
nioc:
however I can ask Cat
00:38:33
BoBeR182:
govt: where are you hiding your funds!!!
00:38:36
BoBeR182:
me: it doesn't exist
00:39:12
nioc:
but I already know what Cat thinks about meownero
00:41:29
BoBeR182:
meow?
00:41:45
BoBeR182:
does anyone have a good source on monero propaganda art
00:41:50
BoBeR182:
looking to expand my collection
00:47:00
nioc:
monero makes Cat feel quite secure
00:47:22
nioc:
also loves mining during cold weather
00:47:38
gan:skhron.org:
That sounds enjoyable
00:47:48
Cindy:
meow
00:47:53
nioc:
:)
00:47:58
Cindy:
meow nioc
00:48:08
gan:skhron.org:
Better than to waste other stuff when you could compute
00:48:10
ravfx:xmr.mx:
I can mine more during summer because more sun
00:48:26
ravfx:xmr.mx:
40C ambiant is so nice :D
00:48:49
gan:skhron.org:
@ravfx:xmr.mx: I'd probably die
00:49:35
ravfx:xmr.mx:
Battery health is good, I want my lifepo4 to outlast me.
00:49:35
ravfx:xmr.mx:
Mining is how my battery dont get to 100% at 10am
01:05:54
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
BoBeR182: I think you're missing my point. let me clarify. Yes, i'm aware that in many places its perfectly legal to use XMR for legitimate purposes. But my point is that this could change at any time, look at the EU (as Cindy pointed out) Therefore, it would be logical to be prepared for these things in advanced. and one of [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/7ZuluN8KVERhVkRO ]
01:07:00
BoBeR182:
buy any legal crypto coin via KYC or p2p
01:07:08
BoBeR182:
exchange for XMR on a noKYC platform
01:07:20
BoBeR182:
that's all you have to really do
01:15:51
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
BoBeR182: ok, but wouldn't cash by mail be even more anonymous? or gift card to XMR (assuming everyone can trust each other). I'm curious to see how far this can go. what is the ultimate paranoid way? maybe just mine it in that case? but then the electric company might ask what you're doing to use up so much electricity.
01:18:42
ravfx:xmr.mx:
Get offgrid, get solar panels and batteries, make electricity for yourself, with love
01:19:56
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
@ravfx:xmr.mx: Now we're talking!
01:23:43
sponkz:
ultimate paranoia way would be sending gps coordinates through pgp encryption or similar, then meeting up using cold storage wallets and doing a XMR for non-traceable bills
01:23:44
sponkz:
xd
01:28:01
cranial_luminance:matrix.org:
sponkz: hmmmmm, this might work. just gotta make sure you're dealing with a trustworthy person. but i like the way you think!
01:30:39
sponkz:
"trust me bro"
01:30:40
sponkz:
:D
01:31:08
sponkz:
best face-to-face trades should be done in public places like a mcdonalds or starbucks :p
02:54:27
321bob321:
You also get food out of it
03:40:30
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
lmao this is crazy, there's actually no source code for the node, wtf. shame the blog is written with gpt though > <Cindy> https://blog.can.ac/2025/12/20/reverse-engineering-hyperliquid/
04:44:30
BoBeR182:
most anonymous would not be in person, as then you have to travel, and lots of CCTV + metadata (phone pings, tickets, gas station reciepts)
04:44:59
BoBeR182:
online only, over some alternative networks, .onion/.i2p
04:45:13
BoBeR182:
ideally it would be crypto4crypto with a time delay
04:45:33
BoBeR182:
otherwise physical precious metals in the mail/dead drops with time delay
04:45:43
BoBeR182:
this is assuming a trusted trading partner
04:45:50
BoBeR182:
precious metals don't have serial numbers
04:46:02
BoBeR182:
while the mail system can be traced, dead drops are less likely to be monitored
04:52:53
BlueyHealer:
Gas station? That's the least of your problems when you're travelling by car. With public transport a lot of tickets are KYC but I think one can manage.
04:53:13
BlueyHealer:
also in some places cash by mail is illegal, keep that in mind
04:54:58
BlueyHealer:
Missed the first part of the conversation so didn't get the context lol. But I feel like for me the CCTVs during purchases are not a concern, not as passive/centrally monitored as bank card transactions.
04:59:46
xmr_guyy:
https://github.com/MAGICGrants/skylight-wallet/releases/tag/v1.0.6
05:00:51
xmr_guyy:
new release of skylight wallet v1.0.6
05:01:40
BoBeR182:
BlueyHealer: makes sense, but assuming a repeated purchase of "illegal" xmr crypto on a nation state hostile country, you'd want to avoid meeting in the same place with the same 2 people consistantly
05:01:55
BoBeR182:
travel creates a strong pattern, lots of studies show you can be deanonymized by that
05:02:12
BoBeR182:
so dead drops + secure communication seems better or "remote" transfers like cash in mail
05:03:07
BoBeR182:
biggest problem with cash is if you pull out $1000 in twenties from an ATM, and they immediatly get deposited in the same order at another customers ATM you can easily link the two transactions together
05:03:12
BoBeR182:
serial numbers and all that
05:48:54
BlueyHealer:
lol imagine HAVING $1000 in cash
06:03:14
b4n6_b4n6:matrix.org:
Hi, guys
06:03:14
b4n6_b4n6:matrix.org:
I made this xmr-btc dex aggregator :)
06:03:14
b4n6_b4n6:matrix.org:
https://monero-orderbooks.com
08:18:12
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
sponkz: Maybe I've seen too many movies, but my idea of proper face 2 face trade is to meet at a toilet in a shopping mall or similar public place :D
08:18:29
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
One of the last places on earth where privacy is respected.
09:06:58
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
They did get raided once actually. Cops walked out empty handed though. > <BoBeR182> and they have no magical govt raids
09:09:09
BlueyHealer:
What are you talking about?
09:26:16
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
https://www.theverge.com/2023/4/21/23692580/mullvad-vpn-raid-sweden-police
09:28:39
BlueyHealer:
That's nice to have but wouldn't count on that alone for anything important. Same as for Signal - raids show they weren't doing it at the moment, not that they're not capable of it.
09:30:24
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Capable of ?
09:33:17
BlueyHealer:
I mean eventually capturing data that the raid showed they weren't collecting.
09:39:52
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
BlueyHealer: Unless you can demonstrate the client apps are capable of capturing data, isn't this just unfounded speculation ?
09:40:46
BlueyHealer:
Why client? I mean the servers in the raid.
09:44:05
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
the idea is that data you transmit to them is encrypted, no ?
09:45:17
321bob321:
Zero knowledge if its e2ee
09:45:27
321bob321:
Server is just a sync
09:45:55
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Yep.
10:06:14
BlueyHealer:
I mean the metadata
10:06:32
BlueyHealer:
With https everywhere, I assume that was the point
10:26:57
tsjk:matrix.org:
@b4n6_b4n6:matrix.org: How can some prices be less than 100% of the market price?
10:53:57
torir:matrix.org:
@b4n6_b4n6:matrix.org: You may wish to consider adding the Eigenwallet orderbook as well. Also RetoSwap has a competitor now called Dawnswap.
11:03:49
monerobull:matrix.org:
Dawnswap is more imaginary lol
11:05:33
monerobull:matrix.org:
I don't think there has ever been a single trade complete on it
11:08:27
321bob321:
Its a new dawn
13:21:21
remake6316:matrix.org:
Anyone here use localcoinswap?
14:09:04
monerobull:matrix.org:
Just use retoswap man
14:10:19
monerobull:matrix.org:
>anyone in here using PayPal?
14:24:05
dmlunar:
I've been using godex.io for swaps. It's easy to use and the conversion rates are ok
14:28:25
dmlunar:
Funny how XMR is being banned on CEX, I don't even think anyone should be using XMR on a CEX in the first place, since it kinda defeats the whole purpose of Monero. DEX for the win! :)
14:31:35
BlueyHealer:
But what about businesses accepting it? Or swappers? They need it conveniently and in bulk, and their income is not secret.
14:32:07
Cindy:
^
14:32:25
Cindy:
DEX is not as stable
14:32:59
Cindy:
you'll have to seek out suppliers or sellers of XMR
14:33:21
Cindy:
and negotiate payment metho
14:33:22
Cindy:
method*
14:33:40
BlueyHealer:
Yeah, something that's not a big deal to an individual, but not a business.
14:33:53
flyingfish0:matrix.org:
A lot of discussion is happening on reddit about the new view keys on the next update of monero and the fact that i can be asked by regulators to map the network. does this discussion is happening to those who make the final decisions on monero devlopment ?
14:33:58
dmlunar:
True, but if it's being banned, it's being banned nothing we can do about that. I was thinking though, this CEX ban is a bit silly considering you can always give an auditor your view key no?
14:34:50
Cindy:
flyingfish0: honestly regulators can do it right now
14:34:55
Cindy:
without the new update
14:35:55
Cindy:
they can ask for all the incoming view keys, and then correlate transactions in a pretty simple way
14:36:42
Cindy:
as far as i know, outgoing view keys are important to the quantum-safety of FCMP++
14:36:58
Cindy:
i think DataHoarder explained that yesterday
14:39:25
Cindy:
dmlunar: yeah that's true, but at the same time, aren't we able to strive for something as convenient as CEX?
14:40:40
dmlunar:
Good point, hopefully the community can.
14:48:33
Cindy:
i'd like a list of centralized fiat<->XMR suppliers that hold some of their liquidity as a bond to prove that they aren't a scam
14:50:10
flyingfish0:matrix.org:
From what i've read the current keys seem impractical tu use for that purpose > <Cindy> they can ask for all the incoming view keys, and then correlate transactions in a pretty simple way
14:50:28
Cindy:
flyingfish0: not really
14:51:09
Cindy:
if a transaction has a main output and a change output
14:51:22
Cindy:
you can check who received the change output (usually the sender itself)
14:51:28
Cindy:
and who received the main output
14:51:35
Cindy:
all with just the incoming view keys
14:52:17
Cindy:
sure, there are transactions with no change, but those are uncommon compared to the ones that do
15:51:44
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
dmlunar: godex is a cex... you know all swappers are cex right
15:55:42
dmlunar:
br-m: that's interesting, I thought it was more of a hybrid.
15:56:08
dmlunar:
br-m: nonetheless I've had a good experience with it
15:57:38
dmlunar:
br-m: I want to give retroswap a go sometime soon
16:14:44
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
i think there is a large undeserved hate for cex and love for delisting
16:14:44
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
* the vast majority of liquidity provided to dex is arbitraged on cex, if cex blows up then liquidity tanks. like with the binance delisting. if kucoin nuked it tomorrow, liquidity would be down terribly again
16:14:44
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
* most users buy/trade on cex because the dex ux is 100x worse (like you using a swapper site which is cex, though swapper sites are more like a middleman, and not a "true" cex)[... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/l7yl0t8KaUFmbTRi ]
16:14:44
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
* no one is running market making on your dex standalone that needs to wait minutes to confirm the trade (there are no AMM dex for monero), central limit order book with huge throughput and low latency is where the liquidity is coming from. if all cex delisted tomorrow it would be very terrible
16:16:24
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
I think i might agree with 40% of each statement
16:17:25
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
what part do you disagree with
16:17:55
Cindy:
" that needs to wait minutes to confirm the trade"
16:17:56
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
re minutes to confirm trade = same thing for arbitraging on cex or using a swapper. Cexs and swappers dont allow 0 conf deposits
16:18:01
Cindy:
if ANYONE even takes your trade
16:18:54
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: that is why dex have terrible liquidity. because it takes minutes to arb with the cex. no one wants to be holding that risk. on the cex there is tight liquidity as you can trade with extremely low latency. the swapper sites just use a "floating rate" and take the cut off whatever it actually trades for, they don't care.
16:19:16
Cindy:
you have to find the goldilock offer
16:19:20
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@kiersten5821:matrix.org: arbing cex -> cex is the same wait ....
16:19:26
Cindy:
either it's too small, or too big
16:19:35
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
trading on cex is mostly NOT arbing though. trading on dex is
16:19:50
Cindy:
or make your own and wait days for someone to take it
16:20:03
Cindy:
or more
16:21:36
Cindy:
CEX is more convenient, you don't have to spend hours looking for the best offer
16:21:49
Cindy:
like if its a payment method you like, but the person wants 1000-2000 XMR
16:22:02
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
When going from fiat?
16:22:09
Cindy:
both ways
16:22:15
Cindy:
when going from fiat and when going from monero
16:22:17
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Of course cex is much easier and more secure
16:22:32
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Exchanges arent doing chargebacks or running scams with stolen accounts
16:23:17
Cindy:
there are so many offers that ask for too little
16:23:19
Cindy:
or too much
16:23:34
Cindy:
and have a payment method you can't possibly fulfill (like F2F)
16:24:02
Cindy:
and yes, range amounts are supposed to fix this, but the minimum or maximum still ends up being shit
16:24:08
Cindy:
on most of the offers that use it
16:25:10
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
But for crypto<->xmr, id argue that there isnt really a problem finding liquidity. If youre buying > 100xmr, theres a few thousand available at 2.5% on retoswap
16:25:37
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
And less than 100xmr and theres probably a couple hundred at 0.5-2%
16:25:52
Cindy:
but i don't want to buy >100xmr
16:25:55
Cindy:
and i don't want to sell that much either
16:26:14
Cindy:
oh wait, you mean crypto<->xmr
16:26:16
Cindy:
sorry
16:26:18
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Ya, the big offers dont want to sell less than 100xmr > <Cindy> and yes, range amounts are supposed to fix this, but the minimum or maximum still ends up being shit
16:26:21
preland:
In general, fiat DEX transactions are the most challenging
16:26:44
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@preland: Yee, becauae fiat cant be decentralized
16:27:14
preland:
I wish there was a better way to do it, but fiat doesn't exactly make transactions "simple" in the same way that crypto ones are
16:27:25
Cindy:
fiat DEX sucks
16:27:34
Cindy:
i was only able to complete one trade
16:27:37
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Fiat dex is an oxymoron
16:28:16
Cindy:
on retoswap, and that's only because i finally found a GOOD offer after spending hours upon hours
16:29:22
Cindy:
i used to think DEX is the way to find monero, but i wouldn't recommend this shit to normies
16:29:51
Cindy:
and to businesses either
16:30:21
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
2.5% is terrible bruh... 0.5 is already not great > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> But for crypto<->xmr, id argue that there isnt really a problem finding liquidity. If youre buying > 100xmr, theres a few thousand available at 2.5% on retoswap
16:30:46
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
it needs uniswap-like liquidity to be actually good
16:31:08
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@kiersten5821:matrix.org: For 2000xmr? Try buying that on cex w/o slippage
16:31:46
Cindy:
i'd like a list of suppliers that either let you sell or buy XMR (even with a fee) directly to or from your wallet
16:32:01
Cindy:
but not like the CEX way
16:32:29
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
I'm slowly coming to the conclusion it's better to acquire a different coin like LTC first then swap it over to XMR.. Not ideal but RetoSwap doesn't really fit my needs either. > <Cindy> i used to think DEX is the way to find monero, but i wouldn't recommend this shit to normies
16:33:10
Cindy:
they list what payment methods they accept upfront, amounts, etc. i don't care
16:33:26
Cindy:
the main benefit here is that it'll be much more stable than the sea of offers in retoswap
16:33:26
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: Basicswap liquidity dried up after xmr ran to highs, but it had good rates for ltc<->xmr, like 1% in either direction, sometimes 0% if buying ltc
16:34:13
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Now I moved the problem from finding XMR to finding LTC, lol.
16:34:39
Cindy:
like accomodating both big and small buyers/sellers, and you can be sure that they won't disappear one day
16:35:01
Cindy:
one of the issues i've had in retoswap, is that the good offers i find don't last
16:35:32
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Cindy: Fiat?
16:35:36
Cindy:
yes
16:35:37
Cindy:
fiat
16:35:52
Cindy:
it's not like you can just settle with someone and know they'll be there for you anytime
16:36:06
Cindy:
they just disappear within a week (or even less), and you're back to searching
16:36:49
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Cindy: Why not? When a friend of mine named notfrnxmr was on localmonero, he was reliable
16:37:07
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
I wonder how it was with LocalMonero. I never actually traded with it but I don't remember it had the same issues as RetoSwap.
16:37:07
Cindy:
exactly
16:37:23
Cindy:
i'd like a list of stable suppliers who are there most of the time
16:37:32
Cindy:
i'm not asking for 24/7 uptime, just business days or whatever
16:37:44
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: Nah LM has full time swappers who were available constantly
16:37:54
Cindy:
and have a good range they accept (not big only or extremely small)
16:38:05
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Even had businesses
16:38:09
Cindy:
yeah LM had those
16:38:18
Cindy:
but it changed after LM got shut down
16:38:27
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Damn, I missed out.
16:38:30
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
like ravfx said, a lot of them never migrated to retoswap
16:38:40
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Why's that ?
16:38:51
Cindy:
retoswap is not a full replacement for localmonero
16:39:03
Cindy:
because local monero had stable suppliers/swappers
16:39:13
Cindy:
while retoswap is full of one-off offers
16:39:29
Cindy:
full of instability, and hours wasted on searching for offers
16:39:30
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Localmonero was easier for non-tech ppl to hop on and buy or sell monero
16:39:42
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Retoswap isnt used by normies
16:39:45
Cindy:
also it didn't help that you had to keep retoswap on all the time
16:39:49
Cindy:
to keep your offer alive
16:39:54
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Cindy: Yea
16:39:58
Cindy:
if you go offline, your offer is gone until you come back
16:40:17
gan:skhron.org:
not yet, that is, because the lack of the userbase at the moment > <Cindy> retoswap is not a full replacement for localmonero
16:40:22
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Also thr accpunt model made it easier to blacklist scammers
16:40:23
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Fuck it I can probably host LocalMonero here for you here in this 3rd world country.
16:41:06
Cindy:
that fact made it even worse to use haveno in general
16:41:13
Cindy:
because i'm not leaving a bloated Java program on 24/7
16:41:30
gan:skhron.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Neither was localmonero to be fair, but yup, it was certainly easier to grasp for the lesser technicals, because it's le website in le browser
16:41:41
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@gan:skhron.org: yes it was
16:41:58
Cindy:
what about openmonero.com?
16:42:41
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Id argue the majority of my friends buyers/sellers were people that were barely able to use cake wallet
16:43:18
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@gan:skhron.org: Nah. LocalMonero was an app on my phone. Haveno feels like I'm entering the darknet market.
16:43:48
Cindy:
also if you didn't run haveno for a long time
16:44:06
Cindy:
you'll have to wait for it to sync to the tip of monero's chain
16:44:18
basses:matrix.org:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: any reason for that?
16:44:19
Cindy:
which made it more dreadful to use it
16:44:26
gan:skhron.org:
That's true, but I also think most people who might use it usually have the hardware to handle it > <Cindy> because i'm not leaving a bloated Java program on 24/7
16:44:52
Cindy:
gan: i like to do work on the same computer i have haveno on
16:45:06
Cindy:
and trust me, the RAM usage from haveno adds up
16:45:15
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@gan:skhron.org: I exclusively used the localmonero app
16:45:22
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Hey this looks pretty good at first glance. ! > <Cindy> what about openmonero.com?
16:45:30
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: Localmonero.me
16:45:52
Cindy:
is openmonero.com a scam
16:46:08
gan:skhron.org:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: I unironically forgot that people use smartphones [I use non-jailed OSes], but yeah, doing F2F trade is almost impossible because desktopness of Haveno
16:46:20
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@basses:matrix.org: For RetoSwap to feel so underground ? I mean it feels that way because thats what it is..
16:46:49
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: What's going on here..
16:47:14
basses:matrix.org:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: still dont get the reason... is it because it doesn't have web interface and support agents?
16:47:21
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Openmonero has a bad rap for numerous reasons.
16:47:21
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
1. they tried to act like they were localmonero and launched as localmonero.me
16:47:21
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
2. They created a localmonero matrix room and invited everyone from the real localmonero's matrix room
16:47:21
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
3. they rebranded / aliased as openmonero, which is another already-taken name[... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/1P2c098KYVl0Q0M2 ]
16:47:54
gan:skhron.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: > 2. who doesn't love invite spam
16:48:09
gan:skhron.org:
yeah, pretty shady
16:48:11
basses:matrix.org:
@gan:skhron.org: grapheneos exists
16:48:14
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
you can buy that much on cex with much less slippage. i don't recall retoswap having that much liquidity in the past, any screenshots? > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> For 2000xmr? Try buying that on cex w/o slippage
16:49:23
Cindy:
are there intermediaries that basically take payments over paypal or whatever and automatically convert to monero?
16:49:31
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/xmr.mx/arGtnSJpaMFMMiYxmAPMbHjo.png (share_8617968101189429552.png)
16:49:49
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Thats buying xmr using btc @kiersten5821:matrix.org
16:50:06
gan:skhron.org:
@basses:matrix.org: Don't care about androids in general, they're still pretty jailed regardless
16:50:16
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@basses:matrix.org: It's because, let's start from the beginning:
16:50:16
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
First, I can't even install it on PC from my usual channels, it's not on Flatpak or any distro's Repo's, gotta download it from the website.
16:50:16
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Then, I have to wait what felt like over 2 hours before being able to use it waiting for the wallet to sync over Tor.
16:50:16
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Then, finally checking the offers, nearly all of them are for tens and hundreds of XMR, and most are deposit based meaning its a no go for beginners...
16:50:37
Cindy:
that's exactly what i'm talking about
16:50:51
Cindy:
most of the offers are for giant amounts of XMR, like only for the big traders
16:51:19
Cindy:
if you just wanna convert 70 dollars from XMR to fiat, good fucking luck
16:51:28
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
I also use "non jailed OSes". > <@gan:skhron.org> I unironically forgot that people use smartphones [I use non-jailed OSes], but yeah, doing F2F trade is almost impossible because desktopness of Haveno
16:51:31
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Cindy: There are better rates on smaller amounts
16:51:39
gan:skhron.org:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: > First, I can't even install it on PC from my usual channels, it's not on Flatpak or any distro's Repo's, gotta download it from the website.
16:51:39
gan:skhron.org:
It's provided as an appimage, that could be easily jailed
16:51:39
gan:skhron.org:
> Then, I have to wait what felt like over 2 hours before being able to use it waiting for the wallet to sync over Tor.[... more lines follow, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/x9ys098KMjEwRllr ]
16:52:02
Cindy:
gan: it's not a one time thing
16:52:09
Cindy:
it happens everytime you don't open haveno for a long tiem
16:52:18
Cindy:
it has to sync up first
16:52:29
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Well shit. The search for a non convoluted way to acquire Monero continues.. > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> Openmonero has a bad rap for numerous reasons.
16:52:31
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: On re-check, the smallest is 1xmr
16:52:46
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
(Which isnt small)
16:52:49
Cindy:
1 xmr is 512 dollars
16:52:56
Cindy:
of course that's not small
16:53:19
Cindy:
if you just wanna convert a small amount quickly, haveno is painful
16:53:25
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Hey, for ltc<->xmr on basicswap, the smallest is like 0.05ltc
16:53:36
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Not from what I've seen. Unless you consider +15% rates to be good.. > <@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx> There are better rates on smaller amounts
16:53:43
Cindy:
i miss long-term swappers
16:53:46
Cindy:
on localmonero
16:54:00
Cindy:
they were as convenient as CEX, but without the problems from CEX
16:54:34
basses:matrix.org:
https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/NdwiCIgUThzSWNrUiSGKohIW.png (clipboard.png) > <@pyratevevo:matrix.org> It's because, let's start from the beginning:
16:54:37
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Cindy: Agree
16:54:41
basses:matrix.org:
https://retoswap.com/#download
16:54:46
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Cindy: Bring Back LocalMonero !
16:54:52
Cindy:
these one-off offers fucking suck
16:55:06
Cindy:
always too big, the good ones just disappear after half a week
16:55:21
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: monero-orderbooks.com
16:55:22
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@basses:matrix.org: I did say I had to download it from the website. What's this screenshot for ?
16:56:37
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/m/matrix.org/ShHzrUznIISNFRjsuSVnpqlB.png (image.png)
16:56:39
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
Not even close to 2000 xmr at 2.5%...
16:57:02
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
oh i read it wrong
16:57:04
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
you were right
16:57:22
basses:matrix.org:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: because what you are saying is subjective, I dont see how downloading from website is somethind odd, you can request them to have on distro's repo
16:57:31
Cindy:
the swappers i like are the ones that accept traders of all kinds
16:57:35
Cindy:
small trades, big trades
16:57:42
Cindy:
most of the offers on haveno are only for whales
16:57:52
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: I wasn't talking about crypto swaps.
16:57:52
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
I mean fiat to Monero directly.
16:57:55
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
i guess it is a little better than i thought
16:59:49
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@basses:matrix.org: On Linux, it is indeed odd for the developers of a software to not put it up on Flathub.
16:59:49
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
I know why though, it's for zero-trust shenanigans. "Download directly from source" etc etc
17:00:44
basses:matrix.org:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: yes, feather refused to put it on flathub for that reason
17:01:13
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Still, pretty inconvenient especially when an update is out.
17:01:39
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
You don't need flathub for updates
17:01:45
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Paranoid devs can even host their own flatpak or distro repo if they cared..
17:02:04
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: retoswap folks arent devs by any stretch of the imagination
17:02:47
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Pretty sure I had to revisit and redownload the flatpak when an update was out last time.
17:02:47
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
I don't know if the AppImage auto updates, that should be trivial to achieve though.
17:03:36
gan:skhron.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Haveno went with a poor design decision where maintaining a separate network requires changing the code, as almost everything is hardcoded in Java instead of being configured in a separate file
17:03:53
basses:matrix.org:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: true about about flatpak repo
17:04:00
basses:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: ^ is probably the reason why didnt do that yet
17:04:03
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: I said need :P
17:04:33
gan:skhron.org:
@gan:skhron.org: What Were They Thinking remains a mystery
17:04:59
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@gan:skhron.org: It was a last minute change
17:05:42
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
It was never intended to have networks
17:05:54
gan:skhron.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: It's a poor architectural design in general, like it's still a mockup
17:06:28
gan:skhron.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: As far as I've understood the concern of running "official" network was always there
17:06:45
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Nah
17:07:08
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
They had an official network up and running
17:07:26
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
But pissed the bed and cancelled the launch
17:07:29
gan:skhron.org:
Hmm, perhaps I'm not correct, truthfully, I've joined the observation deck pretty late in its development
17:08:57
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
before tornadocash, nobody cared about potential grey areas
17:09:17
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
free roman storm
17:09:21
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Could it be that openmonero is all bullshit ?
17:09:31
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
could be
17:10:02
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
I say we should test it out.
17:10:04
gan:skhron.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: My memory is too fuzzy then, I thought the development pick up after tornadocash fiasco
17:10:09
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
:P
17:10:23
Cindy:
does openmonero have bonds?
17:10:29
kiersten5821:matrix.org:
didn't they steal 90 xmr?
17:10:34
Cindy:
or something to check if the swapper won't scam
17:10:52
nioc:
wen did binance delist relative to localmonero shutting down?
17:10:54
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@gan:skhron.org: Nah dev was done by the time localmonero shut down
17:11:14
gan:skhron.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Truthfully, the holes in that grey area were observable with localmonero, as it's obviously that there has been pressure from the state despite it being registered to a HK company (if I recall correctly)
17:11:55
gan:skhron.org:
Like they have to obey sanctions applied by the U.S to some other states
17:12:28
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Cindy: Apparently yes: How am I protected from being scammed?
17:12:28
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
All online trades are protected by arbitration bonds. When a trade is started an amount of Monero equal to the amount of the trade is automatically reserved from the seller's OpenMonero bond wallet. This means that if the seller runs away with your money and does not finalize the trade, OpenMonero support can direct the the Mo [... too long, see https://mrelay.p2pool.observer/e/4e_4098KWHA2VVZP ]
17:13:19
Cindy:
"local trades do not have arbitration bond protection enabled by default."
17:13:30
Cindy:
because you can beat them up
17:31:15
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
What the fuck is "Kenya M-PESA" ?
17:49:57
nioc:
very popular payment system in Africa
17:53:18
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
nioc: Cool. I wonder why these very legitimate OpenMonero traders ask me to send to there African payment system when their listing says Revolut Germany..
17:54:35
nioc:
I have no idea the extent of the network nowadays
17:54:52
nioc:
Maybe because less regulation :)
17:54:58
nioc:
.shrug
17:56:47
monerobull:matrix.org:
it is > <@pyratevevo:matrix.org> Could it be that openmonero is all bullshit ?
17:57:09
monerobull:matrix.org:
its one guy from nigeria running a slander slander campaign against everything else
17:57:20
monerobull:matrix.org:
and he got hacked before because the site is vibecoded
17:59:15
nioc:
oh right, he was slandering retoswap 0_o
18:01:05
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
Gotta give the guy A for effort. The only scam you can fall for with this website is your time.
18:02:44
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@monerobull:matrix.org: Kenya*
18:06:42
monerobull:matrix.org:
sorry my geographic knowledge is rather limited
18:25:54
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@monerobull:matrix.org: Twitter exposed them
18:52:44
Cindy:
ofrnxmr: do you know how adaptor signatures work?
18:52:47
Cindy:
i could never understand those
18:54:30
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Cindy: Otves papers can explain better than i can
18:54:43
Cindy:
otves paper?
18:54:50
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
But tldr it transmits some data off chain
18:54:57
Cindy:
oh
18:55:53
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
https://academy.particl.io/en/latest/basicswap-dex/basicswap_technicals.html#adaptor-signatures
19:40:49
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
If I got LTC from a CEX, should I use the MWEB pegging feature before swapping to XMR or is worthless ?
20:42:49
yokoama:matrix.org:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: if you swap from mweb, you are 99% bound to lose your coins
20:43:32
yokoama:matrix.org:
mweb is seen as mixing, anything coming out of it is not recognized by cex
20:44:13
yokoama:matrix.org:
ltc > mweb > ltc > ltc > ltc > ltc > ltc > ltc > ltc > cex might work
20:44:26
yokoama:matrix.org:
you can do it, fees are low
22:51:12
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@yokoama:matrix.org: Wow.
22:52:08
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@yokoama:matrix.org: Nah fuck that.
22:52:08
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
It's incredible how difficult it is to acquire Monero at no ripoff costs.
23:08:48
trampakoulas:
hi
23:14:46
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Why? > <@yokoama:matrix.org> if you swap from mweb, you are 99% bound to lose your coins
23:15:05
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
Ive swapped from mweb np
23:27:12
ofrnxmr:xmr.mx:
@pyratevevo:matrix.org: Where are you swapping it? P2p?
23:28:47
pyratevevo:matrix.org:
@ofrnxmr:xmr.mx: Well I don't really need to worry about it anymore as even getting Litecoin without KYC seems like wild goose.